An important and pertinent talk here… by two PhD’s with true Patriotic hearts that care….
And Asha, stop saying you wish you went into Psychology as a profession…um, you did! And you’re neck deep in it now! 🙂
.. go ahead and Tell me how you could ever become a FBI Agent (post Hoover/pre-Patel) without formidable, pragmatic application of human psychology….perhaps not to the extent of your former FBI colleague, Internationally Renowned Body Language expert, Joe Navarro… (I love his books, btw)…. But with deep understanding of the “Psychological Mechanisms” (as you call them) at play in your endeavors.
and of course, Mary T here, has her background in Psychology…so what a pair you make for this topic: DE-MAGAfication of America. A “how to” manual for all of us 🐄😉
Yes I’ve mentioned to you, Professor Robert Cialdini’s 1984 classic “Influence” which I read years ago — and was reminded recently of his 6 (updated with a 7th) principles of “influence” (copied and pasted below for convenience) … a book which was sold to Salespeople more than anyone else but is becoming more relevant to all interpersonal domains:
The second on the list is the one that strikes the most resonant chord w your topic today:
~ Commitment & Consistency
It’s astounding how much Stanley Milgrim (happy heavenly birthday to him, btw) revealed at Yale in 1961 … and it’s also astonishing to see how people will continue to remain compliant to truths they’ve been shown (conclusively !)are incorrect.
Often, just because there is a deep need to remain consistent and committed to prior beliefs even when wrong!
Moreover, My meditation teacher, who is also a Doctor of Psychology, said recently there is scientific evidence confirming that the vast majority of people will not “change their minds” about MAGA, or anything else, when “corrected” with the proper facts. Often “quite the contrary” happens..
Not to be simplistic, but I think a lot of the solution lies in what Einstein once said:
“You can not solve a problem with the same level of consciousness that created it.”
That's exactly what dropouts of the new German fascist party, AfD, are telling here in Germany. They create a cult: new members lose their former friends and end up with a contact list where everyone is part of the cult. They start with small things, like giving the Hitler salute in public, and once these small concessions are made, they've got you in the cult — because other people turn away from you.
Thank you both! I'm very grateful for the ongoing work for humanity that you are both engaged in. Super-related to your conversation, I would recommend that folks check out what Rich Logis and his team are doing at LeavingMAGA.org. It's an off -ramp, vibrant community, and counseling support for people who are curious about leaving MAGA. It also supports families trying to negotiate these difficult, sometimes impossible conversations.
I love the idea if the psychological ju jitsu of extending grace or an offramp for MAGA members. It does not work for all of them. For example, those with authoritarian and narcissistic personalities see in Trump a mirror of permission for outwardly expressing their suppressed racism and misogynism. My dad died this year as a diehard Trumper. My greatest grace was to accept I could not change him in his last years; just keep him comfortable. However, for those MAGAs who are economically suffering under the rampant Trump public corruption, we do have an opportunity to give gracefully MAGAs an offramp acknowledging to them that they were betrayed. In a recent walk in my Dad's neighborhood, I saw a lawn sign saying, "It is not about party, it is about morality". It is looking for clues like that which will help us defeat the political Milgram effect of the dark Trumpian era. Our de-MAGA movement has to look for clues in our communities on how to pull these people back to sanity from this corrupt cult.
Point taken about corruption. While people don’t seem nearly as repelled as I am by all these MAGA scumbags cheating on their spouses and raping children, they do seem to be offended by monetary cheating and think the Trump family emptying the treasury into their own pockets, while they tell us to suck it up on price increases, is a bridge too far even for them.
What I have noticed is if I put the focus on oligarchs, on Trump’s family members, on Trump administration officials, on GOP reps insider trading, on AI taking away jobs and data centers using up water supplies, so the MAGAs don’t have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of openly being disloyal to Trump, I get further with getting them to agree we need to throw these bribe-taking bums out. I’m clear in my mind that Trump is just the symptom of a corrupted system and if he dropped dead tomorrow the problems would remain. So I am way more focused on getting the GOP out of power than on Trump.
Honestly it’s not in my nature to be persuasive with stupid people I’d just rather beat to death with “Negan’s” barbwire-wrapped baseball bat. I know they won’t get smarter, and they’ll just fall for the next grifter that comes along and scares them with their phobias, as they have their entire lives, and we’ll be right back here in in the subsequent election with half the country lapping up some conman’s bullshit about what he’s gonna do for them that he’s never going to do for them.
But that said, I think in a country with an estimated 300 million unregistered firearms in private hands, Luigi Mangione and his murder of the UHC CEO is the canary in the coal mine for what’s coming for the tech bros. They think they can create a post-government world where they have absolute license and control to do as they choose to whomever they choose. I don’t think as many people are gonna lay down for that as the Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg and Thiel crowd are telling themselves.
Insightful conversation. I studied for a short term with Ron Heifetz at Harvard’s Leadership Educator’s program. He makes a critical distinction between technical and adaptive work. Heifetz defines leadership as “the mobilization of adaptive work.” We do adaptive work when our core values and deeply held belief systems are challenged. We do adaptive work when we are challenged to examine competing goods and make hard choices, often with insufficient information. (ex: school closings vs. pandemic spread). People resist this kind of inner work and either blame the leader who encourages it, or blindly follow the person who offers easy answers. Technical solutions (ballrooms, renaming historical sites) cannot solve adaptive problems but they can give the temporary illusion (Iran) that we are “doing something.” The ongoing challenge of leadership and, I believe, citizenship, is to enlarge our capacity to examine our values, direct our energies to the things that matter, and be willing to make the sacrifices and compromises that allow a transformational form of leadership to flourish. See (Grashow, Linski, & Heifetz, The Practice of Adaptive Leadership, Harvard Business Press, 2009).
As deep and insightful as ever! It goes down well with people who have high IQs. I am thinking about the masses: Think of everyone as a 15-year-old.
If I may: Do not demonise individuals: Demonise the vices like God-complexes; Greed; Injustices (I think you get my drift).
There was a wise man born in Persia Who said (and I paraphrase): To solve a problem there are times one has to envision first the desired outcome then one has to find one’s way there. (-by Baha’u’llah).
So, may I elevate this chitchat to another level.
The desired outcome (for mine) is in the afterlife, when I am standing in from my ultimate Judge explaining what the heck I was doing down here: “I tried to live a non-judgmental life not having to apologise.”
I would encourage a deeper rethink about crypto currencies as an emerging abstract innovative technological alternative needing maturity to combat the inequities and the injustices of the centralised systems we inherited from our forefathers.
Cryptography is not new. The difference is humans are more mature today than they were in yesteryears.
Once upon a time, the Fiats we know of today were “unearthed” from the figment of the human imagination.
I thank God for you and Mary. Thank you for your knowledge and your courage to fight the vices that afflict the World and her peoples.
The divine yoke that has helped mankind shape an ever evolving civilisation was, is, and always will be Justice with Equity.
Deepest respect and much much Love from Sydney, Australia.
There is less forgiveness of maga voters these days.
This uncle donald has pulled off the greatest con ever.
We always blame the con man more than the victims of the con for good reason.
And we have been getting info from different places with each “side” saying the other side is lying.
But the sadistic brutality of human beings this administration has committed has been in full display thanks to personal videos. Of course “they” believe those are faked.1
I have TRIED!!!!! maga voters are not balking at the brutality.
These women are exemplars of “Humility and emotional intelligence”.
Loved this convo! I think we need to see the seriousness of the Christian nationalism faction of his remaining base.
Let’s call it de-MAGAtize.
An important and pertinent talk here… by two PhD’s with true Patriotic hearts that care….
And Asha, stop saying you wish you went into Psychology as a profession…um, you did! And you’re neck deep in it now! 🙂
.. go ahead and Tell me how you could ever become a FBI Agent (post Hoover/pre-Patel) without formidable, pragmatic application of human psychology….perhaps not to the extent of your former FBI colleague, Internationally Renowned Body Language expert, Joe Navarro… (I love his books, btw)…. But with deep understanding of the “Psychological Mechanisms” (as you call them) at play in your endeavors.
and of course, Mary T here, has her background in Psychology…so what a pair you make for this topic: DE-MAGAfication of America. A “how to” manual for all of us 🐄😉
Yes I’ve mentioned to you, Professor Robert Cialdini’s 1984 classic “Influence” which I read years ago — and was reminded recently of his 6 (updated with a 7th) principles of “influence” (copied and pasted below for convenience) … a book which was sold to Salespeople more than anyone else but is becoming more relevant to all interpersonal domains:
The second on the list is the one that strikes the most resonant chord w your topic today:
~ Commitment & Consistency
It’s astounding how much Stanley Milgrim (happy heavenly birthday to him, btw) revealed at Yale in 1961 … and it’s also astonishing to see how people will continue to remain compliant to truths they’ve been shown (conclusively !)are incorrect.
Often, just because there is a deep need to remain consistent and committed to prior beliefs even when wrong!
Moreover, My meditation teacher, who is also a Doctor of Psychology, said recently there is scientific evidence confirming that the vast majority of people will not “change their minds” about MAGA, or anything else, when “corrected” with the proper facts. Often “quite the contrary” happens..
Not to be simplistic, but I think a lot of the solution lies in what Einstein once said:
“You can not solve a problem with the same level of consciousness that created it.”
Thank you for all you do.. 🙏🐾
Dr Steven Hassan's work on escaping cults. Non-confrontational 🙌🏻
https://substack.com/@stevenhassan
Micro-aggressions versus micro-concessions...
That's exactly what dropouts of the new German fascist party, AfD, are telling here in Germany. They create a cult: new members lose their former friends and end up with a contact list where everyone is part of the cult. They start with small things, like giving the Hitler salute in public, and once these small concessions are made, they've got you in the cult — because other people turn away from you.
Oh my god.
Thank you Asha. I hope you’re enjoying Mexico. Have fun. Brilliant piece on this. Glad you two were able to do this.
Thank you both! I'm very grateful for the ongoing work for humanity that you are both engaged in. Super-related to your conversation, I would recommend that folks check out what Rich Logis and his team are doing at LeavingMAGA.org. It's an off -ramp, vibrant community, and counseling support for people who are curious about leaving MAGA. It also supports families trying to negotiate these difficult, sometimes impossible conversations.
I just signed on to say the same. They have a virtual support group Tuesdays at 7 pm for "those affected by a loved one's MAGA affiliation."
Great conversation, thank you both!🫶
I love the idea if the psychological ju jitsu of extending grace or an offramp for MAGA members. It does not work for all of them. For example, those with authoritarian and narcissistic personalities see in Trump a mirror of permission for outwardly expressing their suppressed racism and misogynism. My dad died this year as a diehard Trumper. My greatest grace was to accept I could not change him in his last years; just keep him comfortable. However, for those MAGAs who are economically suffering under the rampant Trump public corruption, we do have an opportunity to give gracefully MAGAs an offramp acknowledging to them that they were betrayed. In a recent walk in my Dad's neighborhood, I saw a lawn sign saying, "It is not about party, it is about morality". It is looking for clues like that which will help us defeat the political Milgram effect of the dark Trumpian era. Our de-MAGA movement has to look for clues in our communities on how to pull these people back to sanity from this corrupt cult.
Another great session Asha. You rock!
Point taken about corruption. While people don’t seem nearly as repelled as I am by all these MAGA scumbags cheating on their spouses and raping children, they do seem to be offended by monetary cheating and think the Trump family emptying the treasury into their own pockets, while they tell us to suck it up on price increases, is a bridge too far even for them.
What I have noticed is if I put the focus on oligarchs, on Trump’s family members, on Trump administration officials, on GOP reps insider trading, on AI taking away jobs and data centers using up water supplies, so the MAGAs don’t have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of openly being disloyal to Trump, I get further with getting them to agree we need to throw these bribe-taking bums out. I’m clear in my mind that Trump is just the symptom of a corrupted system and if he dropped dead tomorrow the problems would remain. So I am way more focused on getting the GOP out of power than on Trump.
Honestly it’s not in my nature to be persuasive with stupid people I’d just rather beat to death with “Negan’s” barbwire-wrapped baseball bat. I know they won’t get smarter, and they’ll just fall for the next grifter that comes along and scares them with their phobias, as they have their entire lives, and we’ll be right back here in in the subsequent election with half the country lapping up some conman’s bullshit about what he’s gonna do for them that he’s never going to do for them.
But that said, I think in a country with an estimated 300 million unregistered firearms in private hands, Luigi Mangione and his murder of the UHC CEO is the canary in the coal mine for what’s coming for the tech bros. They think they can create a post-government world where they have absolute license and control to do as they choose to whomever they choose. I don’t think as many people are gonna lay down for that as the Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg and Thiel crowd are telling themselves.
Mary has been fighting the good fight for a long time, her diligence and commitment are amazing. She is very loved and supported by us out here!!!!
https://www.exit-deutschland.de/
this is the link to the German dropout program, maybe you find some useful inspiration there
Thank you!
Insightful conversation. I studied for a short term with Ron Heifetz at Harvard’s Leadership Educator’s program. He makes a critical distinction between technical and adaptive work. Heifetz defines leadership as “the mobilization of adaptive work.” We do adaptive work when our core values and deeply held belief systems are challenged. We do adaptive work when we are challenged to examine competing goods and make hard choices, often with insufficient information. (ex: school closings vs. pandemic spread). People resist this kind of inner work and either blame the leader who encourages it, or blindly follow the person who offers easy answers. Technical solutions (ballrooms, renaming historical sites) cannot solve adaptive problems but they can give the temporary illusion (Iran) that we are “doing something.” The ongoing challenge of leadership and, I believe, citizenship, is to enlarge our capacity to examine our values, direct our energies to the things that matter, and be willing to make the sacrifices and compromises that allow a transformational form of leadership to flourish. See (Grashow, Linski, & Heifetz, The Practice of Adaptive Leadership, Harvard Business Press, 2009).
As deep and insightful as ever! It goes down well with people who have high IQs. I am thinking about the masses: Think of everyone as a 15-year-old.
If I may: Do not demonise individuals: Demonise the vices like God-complexes; Greed; Injustices (I think you get my drift).
There was a wise man born in Persia Who said (and I paraphrase): To solve a problem there are times one has to envision first the desired outcome then one has to find one’s way there. (-by Baha’u’llah).
So, may I elevate this chitchat to another level.
The desired outcome (for mine) is in the afterlife, when I am standing in from my ultimate Judge explaining what the heck I was doing down here: “I tried to live a non-judgmental life not having to apologise.”
I would encourage a deeper rethink about crypto currencies as an emerging abstract innovative technological alternative needing maturity to combat the inequities and the injustices of the centralised systems we inherited from our forefathers.
Cryptography is not new. The difference is humans are more mature today than they were in yesteryears.
Once upon a time, the Fiats we know of today were “unearthed” from the figment of the human imagination.
I thank God for you and Mary. Thank you for your knowledge and your courage to fight the vices that afflict the World and her peoples.
The divine yoke that has helped mankind shape an ever evolving civilisation was, is, and always will be Justice with Equity.
Deepest respect and much much Love from Sydney, Australia.
There is less forgiveness of maga voters these days.
This uncle donald has pulled off the greatest con ever.
We always blame the con man more than the victims of the con for good reason.
And we have been getting info from different places with each “side” saying the other side is lying.
But the sadistic brutality of human beings this administration has committed has been in full display thanks to personal videos. Of course “they” believe those are faked.1
I have TRIED!!!!! maga voters are not balking at the brutality.
It is hard to forgive.